Existing games => Cartridges

[arnoldemu]

Some information:

The label on a cartridge:

width: 45mm
length: 88mm (needs to be measured more accurately because I measured this off a label already on the case).
spine: 14mm

thickness of "red part of label": 30mm.

Can somebody create a template that we can all use?

The cartridge itself:

length: 67mm (this is not so important because the cartridge can be made longer)
width: 65mm (this is important).
height: 15mm (this is important).

the ridge is the grooves on the left and right side on the underneath of the cartridge.

ridge underneath is 46mm long.
width of ridge underneath is 3mm.
height of ridge is 2mm.

there are 2 slots.
first starts 8mm from end where cart is connected, is 4mm wide, and 8mm long, with 4mm depth.

2nd starts at 43mm from front, is 5mm long, 4mm wide and seems to be 4mm depth.

the grips are 53mm from front, 11m long, same height as cart. lines run vertically.


area for label:
28 from  front. 38mm long it seems and 45mm wide. 8mm from each side.


pictures forthcomming....

[arnoldemu]

measurements are fairly accurate but may be out by 1mm or so, my eyes are not what they once were.

[arnoldemu]

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15532.JPG

end on, picture a bit blurred. yes that is my hand.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15521.JPG

underside of upper part. at the top is the plastic pin that almost always gets broken.
this side has the triangle bits the clips close over.

interestingly on some are marked A-1, A-2, B-1 etc, although they don't appear different in design.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15522.JPG

underside of bottom part.  this has the clips on it.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15523.JPG

top part, with label and arrows.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15525.JPG

bottom part. on left side of this picture are the 2 notches.
on either side are the ridges.
and the bottom part of the label.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15529.JPG

one side shows grips.

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15530.JPG

showing the part that is inserted into plus, with space for pcb to go.
on the top/bottom parts of the plastic there are beveled edges (e.g. they go from thin to thick).

http://www.cpctech.org.uk/SDC15531.JPG

the other side. showing notches and grip and my hand for the final time.

[arnoldemu]

it would be nice if somebody could do some good scans. I can give them the cartridge shells I have taken photos of it they want.

in addition I didn't measure the insides, the most important parts are the dimensions and the notches/ridges to ensure the cartridge inserts into the plus correctly.

the insides can change, and we could use a different method to join them (screws instead of clips. the inside is only important to stop people breaking them open and to ensure the pcb remains fixed within the case., so the design of this is not so important I believe.

for authentic look, we only need to reproduce the outside correctly, let it be a screw design, and put the screw where the label is. put a label over the top, to me that is perfectly fine.

ok, so we need to know if there are any existing boxes out there that can match the dimensions and which can be cut to have those notches and ridges.

[Devilmarkus]

I once refreshed the label for my system cartridge.
For this I did a 300 DPI picture:


Perhaps its useful?

[Bryce]

@MacDeath: The "other" man in the middle solution you're talking about, is what the ACID-Inside project tries to achieve. You could easily make a CPLD ACID Inside PCB, which would then negate the need for cartridges to have a real or emulated ACID in them and reduce the price of the cartridges considerably.

Bryce.

[Devilmarkus]

@ arnoldemu: Could you put the cartridge parts on a scanner and scan them?
Then we'd have the exact measurings...

BTW.: My "new" labeled system cart.: http://www.cpc-live.com/plus_5.jpg

[mr_lou]

Would it be possible to make something similar to the C64 EasyFlash solution, for the CPC?

[arnoldemu]

@ arnoldemu: Could you put the cartridge parts on a scanner and scan them?
Then we'd have the exact measurings...

BTW.: My "new" labeled system cart.: http://www.cpc-live.com/plus_5.jpg

Will try the scanner later. I looked around our house and found

Cassette case for single cassette is just a little bit too thick but the width is the same as a cart. A DVD case is the correct thickness but too wide and long. I have an old case for those metal circular pins that you use to pin paper to one of those old cork boards. Correct thickness a bit longer with a handle too but too a little too thin.

Looking at a 6128 plus I noticed that the physical locking mechanism to keep it inside the plus only uses the smaller notch so the largest is not needed. Is it needed for gx 4000?

[arnoldemu]

Would it be possible to make something similar to the C64 EasyFlash solution, for the CPC?

C 64 has extra signals to its cart including write. Plus cart doesn't have this so writing on plus would not be possible.

A different cart solution using expansion instead of cart connection and having a dummy cart with acid only could make it possible.

[gerald]

C 64 has extra signals to its cart including write. Plus cart doesn't have this so writing on plus would not be possible.

It should be possible to write to the cartrigge at the expense of a FSM that convert sequence of read to a write command. This may still require a uC to do the actual write to a flash.

However such writeable cart this will be of little use for a GX4000 as there is no drive to get data from.

Ideal solution would be a USB uC + SD + PLD + RAM in a cart
- uC + SD is seen as a USB key from a PC where you load CPR files
- when on CPC/GX4000, a default CPR is loaded from SD into RAM. This default CPR then allow the selection of other CPR using keyboard or pad

A different cart solution using expansion instead of cart connection and having a dummy cart with acid only could make it possible.

I've already tried that with my improved Ram/Rom extension few post ago  .

[Octoate]

Yep, the larger notch is used by the GX4000.

Well, I already thought about how to write to the cartridge... It could be possible to add a switch which enables a write mode within the cartridge. In this mode, you can "write by read" (e.g. reading 0xC0XX, then 0xC1YY - set's the address to 0xXXYY, then reading 0xC2ZZ, write 0xZZ into this address). Not very fast and requires additional logic but at least it is possible.

--- UPDATE: ---
@gerald: this is a solution which other cartridges, like e.g. the "sd2snes" cartridge (btw, a very cool cartridge), uses. I would prefer such a system, too. When you start the GX4000 / Plus, you will see a ROM selection screen and choose a ROM from the SD card. But the cost of the cartridge will be higher, of course.

[mr_lou]

Ideal solution would be a USB uC + SD + PLD + RAM in a cart
- uC + SD is seen as a USB key from a PC where you load CPR files
- when on CPC/GX4000, a default CPR is loaded from SD into RAM. This default CPR then allow the selection of other CPR using keyboard or pad

THIS!!! Let's do this! When will it be ready? 

[gerald]

 

@gerald: this is a solution which other cartridges, like e.g. the "sd2snes" cartridge (btw, a very cool cartridge), uses. I would prefer such a system, too. When you start the GX4000 / Plus, you will see a ROM selection screen and choose a ROM from the SD card. But the cost of the cartridge will be higher, of course.

Yes, and we still have the case problem to solve 

THIS!!! Let's do this! When will it be ready? 

When it's done 

The are a lot of code available for AVR regarding USB/SD/FAT management. That part should not be the problem.
Next is schematic and PCB design.
Last will be SW.

I first need to finish ongoing project : FAT support for AMSDOS on my RAM/ROM/CompactFlash extension.

[arnoldemu]

Yes, and we still have the case problem to solve 

Over the next few days I will visit some shops and look online for some boxes that can be used and modified.
I will look in Hobbycraft and our local £1 shop - perhaps something is there that can be used.

After that I will send some e-mails and enquire about a mold and having them made, but I think it will be expensive.

[Trebmint]

Over the next few days I will visit some shops and look online for some boxes that can be used and modified.
I will look in Hobbycraft and our local £1 shop - perhaps something is there that can be used.

After that I will send some e-mails and enquire about a mold and having them made, but I think it will be expensive.

Ive looked online and there's nothing really very close. The height and width are an unusual match it would seem, plus the cutouts seems important so that would make alterations very hard. This needs to get worked up in CAD, and then it can be priced properly. There are cheaper methods that injection moulding, like vacuum casting in silicon but that would work out expensive too I think

[Trebmint]

http://www.cen-fr.net/find.php?ref=il03p1003
Do you think this might be useful, and if so do they still have them? I think somebody tried sourcing these before did they not?

[arnoldemu]

http://www.cen-fr.net/find.php?ref=il03p1003
Do you think this might be useful, and if so do they still have them? I think somebody tried sourcing these before did they not?

I believe TFM has bought a few.

I went into Hobbycraft. I didn't take a cart with me, but none of the boxes seemed to be a good match.

[arnoldemu]

I contacted boss enclosures (BOSS Enclosures | Welcome). I have asked them how much to have 100 units of a custom sized potting box.

In addition I asked what is required to make new cartridges based on a design that would be similar, but not the same as the original box. And the cost per unit for 100 boxes.

This is to avoid copyright issues in case there was ever to be a problem. Certain aspects of the exterior are needed, others are not. The internals can be our own design that are suitable for our own pcbs.

I will post back when I have a reply from them.

EDIT: I indicated to them there was a cost limit with "if the price is within our reach".
A custom sized potting box the same size as an existing cart, may be suitable, it may even be cheap enough.
A full reproduction of the design would cost more I am sure.

[steve]

I have just seen a couple of videos on youtube about resin casting that might be suitable to make the cases and silicon rubber casting to make the moulds, I do not know if these techniques are suitable for our requirements but are cheap enough for a few experiments.

[ralferoo]

I have just seen a couple of videos on youtube about resin casting that might be suitable to make the cases and silicon rubber casting to make the moulds, I do not know if these techniques are suitable for our requirements but are cheap enough for a few experiments.

That's what I was referring to a few days ago. I believe the silicon used to make the molds is actually quite expensive (about £15 for a 500g tub) and most of the people I've seen trying it on the web take about 5 or 6 goes before they get good results. I also don't think each mold lasts more than about 5-10 uses, so it's good for small runs or prototypes, but probably quite time consuming if you had to make a lot of them.

[arnoldemu]

This is the reply I got:

"For custom potting box the prototype cost will be £75.00.

Thereafter to unit price will be around £4.00 each for a drop of 100 off. Unit prices are confirmed after prototyping, I would not expect the unit price to be more than £4.25 each.

For a custom build the prototype would be around £125.00 and the unit prices around £6.00. Please note we will need a PCB and we can confirm the unit prices. Please also not the custom build will be (x2) 8mm thick Black High Impact Polystyrene parts CNC machined down that fit together to make up the enclosure. X2 screws or solvent will be required to secure the two halves."

So, £75 for the custom box, and 100 * £4.25.

Custom build is £125 + 100 * £6.00.

Interesting.

[arnoldemu]

Is there anyone who can make a good technical design drawing of a cart, or recommend some free linux software that can do it?

[Gryzor]

Huh, this is actually a very doable price...

[Bryce]

I don't quite understand what the difference is between standard and custom? Aren't they both custom?

As far as tech drawings are concerned, I'll see what I can do.

Bryce.