Existing games => Cartridges

[steve]

A cartridge is really just a simple square box shape so maybe someone can source a small plastic box of the right size and cut one end off so it is open one end?
Then glue in a couple of mounts to secure the PCB.

[Bryce]

A cartridge is really just a simple square box shape so maybe someone can source a small plastic box of the right size and cut one end off so it is open one end?
Then glue in a couple of mounts to secure the PCB.

This was the approach I was taking, but you wouldn't believe how difficult it is to find a box with dimensions close enough to be useful

Bryce.

[Trebmint]

Does somebody have the exact dimensions or a decent CAD drawing?

[Octoate]

@ralferoo: Cool, only 12 macrocells, but you should test it, because during the XzentriX we had such a simple design, too, but the optimizer tricked us and the design wasn't working . I also began to design such a flash cartridge, but I have used an ATMega32 and V-USB (the USB versions weren't available back then), but this unfortunately never became a prototype. Maybe I should upload the current design to Github, just in case somebody is interested in it...

@case: I have uploaded a Vectrex CAD cartridge design to Shapeways to check what it would cost to print a similar case. Well... 20 EUR for the bottom and 20 EUR for the top (if you use silver, then 300 EUR for the top and 300 EUR for the bottom ). So a commercial 3D printing service would be rather expensive.
During vacations I've also worked in a company which manufactured injection molding tools and produce the plastic parts with them. Such a setup would cost about 2500 EUR - 3000 EUR without the production of a single cartridge - but that was ~10 years ago.
Another possibility would be to use a CNC mill to produce a cartridge case. That shouldn't be too expensive...

[TotO]

The MultiCart I was working on is a 16x 128K version [...] the ACID replacement is what's holding it back. [...] The ideal solution as far as I'm concerned would be a PAL / GAL solution.

Yes, CPC+ ACIDless cartridges with up to 16 ROM will be great for games compilations for playing the best GX4000 games, as it's difficult to get them for a descent price today.

[MacDeath]

The problem with the cost is that if you aim too low production, you can't get a fair price.
If you aim large production, you have to use it and sell it.

argumentation is like : but nobody develop on PLUS cartridges...
Well, because it doesn't exist yet.


Like the chicken and egg... which one came first?

A good point would be to actually design a man in the middle sort of cartridge.
But not one designed to use an existing cartridge to give the ACID, like the one already done.

The new MITM cartridge would actually include the ACID emulation.
As a result, you would need less "ACID emulation" pieces, and the final game/ROM cartridges would also be far simplier and specified completely up to our will.

What are the existing cheap cartridge formats on other machines?
Perhaps a MitMiddle cartridge that would include the "ACID replacement" and enable to put a "C64" or "MSX" lookalike cartride would be a solution.

the casing are existing, producted for cheap already.
The female connector is certainly easier to find than the one for the CPC.

what is it? a 22x2 (44) slot for the C64 ?

So all we would have to actually produce?

>> the ACID emulating Man-in-the-middle adapter for the new format.
>>then a PCB for the ROMs designed to fit into existing Cartridge casing models largely and cheaply produced (Atari? C64? MSX ? just find the cheaper and smaller or cooler).

i even guess old GameBoy cartridge slot would be great. Small, and very very very common.
not sure producted by homeproducers though, not even sure the connector is that cheap too..

This said, such cartridge system would also be an open way to... piracy indeed... ouch.
Because the second cartridge part (the one with the ROM) could simply be a naked socket for ROM/EEPROM/Flash/Whatever...


And you could always use guenuine cartridge to play the genuine original games.

[TotO]

Sure, but for playing GX4000 games you make GX4000 no more compatible. 

[MacDeath]

wat?
you remove the "MITM acid-emulating cart adapter" and simply plug a genuine GX4000 cartridge...
Or else if you want bootled games in the new format, you need the "MITM acid-emulating cart adapter".

Yeah, you'll have to get this adapter to "bootleg" existing games... so what?
You'll have to get bootleg cartridge with ACID emulation anyway...

To get all on a big ROMboard with 16 games...well, why not...
But hey, could use 4xgames per cartridges only too, no need to put this big things with shittons of ROMs on a port not designed for this.

[Devilmarkus]

Would be interesting, too:
Copying Cartridges to Disk

If is possible...
Did anyone ever try that? Copy Burnin' Rubber to Disk?

[TFM]

You easily can copy it to disc, but you can't start it from disc. The main reason is that the disc has no ROM banking like the Cart. has.

[Devilmarkus]

You easily can copy it to disc, but you can't start it from disc. The main reason is that the disc has no ROM banking like the Cart. has.

True. But a 128k CPC has RAM banking. So isn't it possible to emulate that via RAM? CPR games are build for 64k machines. So we have 4 16k banks free...
Or for example on a 256k CPC we have more...

[MacDeath]

>>Copy to disk :
May depends on the games.


The few infamous "straight CPC to GX4000 ports" are useless, just simply play the CPC versions of KLAX, Barbarian2, Batman and so on.
To be fair, hacked version of the CPC games could get proper PLUS intro-page or colourswaps/Plus palette or even be upgraded to 128PLUS the way Rick Dangerous was.

for the rest... if 128K ROM is really used, and the RAM is also used dynamically... could need a heavy hacking and rewrite job I guess.
Readdressing, perhaps a few ROM to sprite uploadings would be screwed too.

I mean, the CPC6128PLUS would actually be a bit short in RAM to handle this too.

But.
The aim it to benefit from having 512k ROM and the RAM.
This is really what is needed to get "awesome games in the best condition possible on those PLUS machines"...


Or else a proper HardDiskDrive on a 6128PLUS would be great...

[gerald]

But a 128k CPC has RAM banking. So isn't it possible to emulate that via RAM? CPR games are build for 64k machines. So we have 4 16k banks free...
Or for example on a 256k CPC we have more...

You would have to patch the code to use ram banking instead of ROM (cardridge), and also be stuck if the game write to the RAM under the ROM.

[gerald]

I am not sure we would ever go in a cardridge production  , but we may be able to emulate one using a plus specific version of a RAM/ROM box.


Basically, we only need to emulate the additional ROM mapping register as well as the lock/unlock mechanism.

I am thinking of the following setup:
  - 512K ram dedicated to the cardridge emulation, visible either as normal extension RAM or as read only cardridge ROM. Behavior is selected via a IO mapped register.
  - optional Mass storage (Compact flash/ SD) to store the Cardridge image (.CPR)
  - optional 512k RAM, so cardridge game/prog can also have 512k ram to use
  - optional 512k flash

How we use it :
1.  CPC is powered and start on the original cardridge (BASIC). All RAM is seen as extension RAM
2. CPR bootloader is then started by user (floppy/RSK) or automagically (ROM)
3. CPR is loaded in extension RAM
4. CPR Ram is switched to ROM mode
5. warm boot (JP 0x0000)

Now the CPC should boot as on a real cardridge.

The only issue I see is the size of the PLD needed to add these functionality.
  My own RAM/FLASH/CF is fully using a xilinx XC9572 for handling the RAM/FLASH/CF/I2C.
  Adding the lock/unclok mechanism will requires 10 additional blocks.
  I did not check the additional ROM mapping register and handling, but these should be OK in a XC95144XL.
  The only "problems" with the XC95144XL are the 3.3V operation as well as the 0.5mm pitch. None of these are blocking, but have an impact on cost.

 

[Trebmint]

If I was ever tempted to finish another + game it would have to have a proper (like the original) cartridge, otherwise I dont see the point. One cart that fits a gx or a plus, not some heath robinson rom arrangement.
And when Johnathan Cauldwells AGD arrives on the CPC from the speccy we might see a glut of cool platformers, with hardware sprites. Oh we'll need those carts then haha

[MacDeath]

The main problem is to run this on a GX4000... no?


So a RAM/ROM connected on the extension port is a no no.


I mean, we already have ROMboards or Flashboards to connect on CPC/6128PLUS. this already exists.

[mr_lou]

I see no reason why a cartridge game should be CPC+ only.

I mean, any of the newer games developed for the standard CPC models, such as Dead on Time or Orion Prime, could be put on a cartridge as well, for playing on a GX4000. (Except of course when the games rely on keyboard input).

More CPC+ games would definitely be awesome though. The CPC+ has been seriously neglected. Understandable, but sad. I'd love to see new CPC+ games taking advantage of the CPC+ features.

And to the question "Do we really need it?!"
Of course we don't need it. There's very little we actually need. Don't need HxC, or MegaFlash either. But they are definitely quite nice to have. 

One question that would be interesting to get the answer for is this though:
"Would developers develop CPC+ games if we could put them on cartridges?"

I think most developers choose focus on the standard CPC models. Often they even insist that their game must work on a CPC464 with only 64kb. This despite that hardly anyone in the community uses a plain CPC464 anymore. Almost everyone has a CPC with 128kb ram or more - but they seem to use emulators instead anyway! (I was the only one who noticed that the game "Eternal Light" didn't run on a real CPC. The developer and everyone who played the game, used an emulator).

So, the reason for insisting on targeting the CPC464, cannot be for the users. It can only be for the "Look! It runs on a plain CPC464!" credit.
And that's great, but it's been done now. Great CPC464 compatible games has been produced. Time to move on and show the world what the CPC+ models can do. 

[TotO]

Playing CPC games on CPC+ is already possible using floppies and HXC w/o problem.
A new SLIM HXC cost around 50€. It's perfect for that.  

Orion Prime, R-Type, ... Will never work on a CPC464+ or an GX4000 without heavy patching.
To get benefit of the CPC+, do CPC+ cartridges with CPC+ games. (new or old)

[gerald]

The main problem is to run this on a GX4000... no?


So a RAM/ROM connected on the extension port is a no no.


I mean, we already have ROMboards or Flashboards to connect on CPC/6128PLUS. this already exists.

OK, no way for the GX4000, and we already have flash/Ram board 

But I was more seeing this as :
  - "Run all plus games cardrigde" using the basic/burning rubber cardridge on your real Plus. All the plus game collection without having to run after ACID chips, plastic and EPROM burner/eraser. CSD for everyone 

  - Cardridge development made easy, coupled with a CPC booster you can test your cartridge prod on real CPC.

[MacDeath]

Those modern "normal CPC64K" games could easily be turned into GX4000/464PLUS cart games by their producers.
If it can run on a stock CPC464... it can even more easily run on a GX4000/464PLUS+128K (or even more) ROM and 64K RAM.
Of course the guy would have to redo a lot of stuffs.

Dead on time, BubbleBooble64K, StarSabre64K... and so on.
not as good as a proper 6128PLUS + 512K cart + Diskdrive + keyboard and so on...
Still interesting.

Could even use a few hardstricks, extra palette and so on.

But as long as no perspective to get those in a "ready to play on a GX4000" exist, less interest from the coders I guess.

Many retro console collectioners do have a GX4000 just because it is a piece in their collection.
They are not like us the Amstrad Fans into CPC and PLUS because "lol my old computer from when I was a snotling and I love to code or graph or sound on this like gay old time".

You all can simply get a shitty GX4000 burnin'rubber cart, open it, add a socket and do your own multicart... so what?
also many of you are all like "I want my cart to have 16 sockets, extra links to extra extension and with a red carpet and extra grip and beer casing socket with dynamic diode lights and blahblah..."...

We won't get anywhere thinking this way.

Best way : just produce an adapter...
then the carts would be of well known and cheap and readily available technology (gotta chose wisely, parasiting another machine retroenthousiast producting casings or components kits is good...).

That's all.

If you want a development kit?
just get a board able to burn the chip used for ROM and yes, you will have to disconnect this "ROM", plug it into a socket then into a PLUS machine and run it...
Deal with it!
Perhaps a PC based USB socket "burn and read" compatible with WinApe could do it too...

Run all plus games cardrigde" using the basic/burning rubber cardridge on your real Plus. All the plus game collection without having to run after ACID chips, plastic and EPROM burner/eraser. CSD for everyone

This is already possible, just break a cartridge... find a stock of EEPROM and a socket, re-solder the lks and voilà.




Solution need to be practical and cheap, not ideal.

[TFM]

IMHO a GX4000 is just good to be converted into a 6128 Plus. That may be a lot of work, but it's our hobby, right

[steve]

I would not want to pay for a cartridge that contained old CPC software, this is what killed the plus at the time, old software can be loaded from disk or tape, a cartridge should indicate that as many of the plus features have been used as possible, and the full 512KB has been used to enhance a game more than is possible in 128K ram.

[MacDeath]

@tfm/fm : nope... GX4000 are to be preserved as symbol of man's vanity.
Well provided Alan Sugar (the sir M.) is a man... and he is.
Their place is in museum or connected to a TV.

Anyway, just find a 6128PLUS and get those "awesome" PLUS enhanced games on disk... but still, a new cart format is to be done to get the legend live at last.

If a new cart series in 512K ROM is to be produced, we can aim at simple 64K RAM game (console and 464+...) or awesome upgraded 128K + keyboard + Disk mega games.


Even "Internet on 6128PLUS with super 512K cart OS+Browser+mediaplayer and Brycemouse (+5V on the analog port) and extra RAM/ROMboard and so on"...

A good wargame or superOS or apps or RPG could use this.

512K with Locobasic+RSX extra basic + Symbos + futureOS (MacDeath special mode2 skinpack edition and fancy extra desktop options management... sie mussen macht dieses,Herr Doktor... du kannst! du will, du musst... and I am shit in german conjugaison too... hehehe...)+ text & graphix editor + copy/paste option + mouse management + many character fonts... and don't forget CP/M... all in full raster+ sprite + overscan (or not) mode...
On the same bit of 512k cart...   **


**seriously, OS makers, just get along and use same fonts and sprites and create a nice new Firmware...

Or mega Might and magic 3 like game... or even Heroes of Might and magic game, with driver for extra disk to save and get extra campaign, keyboard management, mouse (with +5V taken on the analog port) and so on...

While those fancy 6128PLUS extras are fancies,still it can be done...
Otherwise, 64K RAM + 512K ROM is still really awesome.
I mean, 64K RAM is more than enough to do overscan double buffering... and 512K enough to manage Tape for save-games, or disk, or variant be it GX4000, stock 464PLUS of fully upgraded PLUS machine (128K and Disk and/or tape...)

on the 512K only 32k or 48K at best (yeay, perhaps even 64K, warum nicht...) needed for the drivers for the 3 configs.
Still let a lot for alternate options or decompression in RAM.

No 8 bit consoles had as many RAM/VRAM as a GX4000 (unless you count the PCengine with CDRom extension?)
Sega Master system is 8K of RAM + 16K of VRAM, and guess what, its need in VRAM is not even fullfilled...
256x200x16 in 4bpp is actually like 24K... not just 16K in theroy.

The Amstrad PLUS on the other hand could really do grerat stuffs in full overscan.

Yes I dream of an overscan KLAX with DMA sounds effects samples and few Harsprites patches and rasters...
Would even beat the Atari Lynx' version.


Also imagine Sub Hunter's intro or Ghost Buster2 intro in PLUS... 19 coloured 64x64 pixels digitalised picture and rasterish wankfest vertical scroll text, all in mode1...


I dream of a real Ghosbuster2 game that would mix both the CPC and the PC(dos) versions...


CPC :

CPC part would include 19 colours picturesand many hues letters rasterish fapings... and the shooth'em up 2nd part (liberty sttayue) could use hadsprites and hardscrolls...



PC (EGA on Dos, well a PC1640 then)

it could be done, even manage mouse and so on...
Those "Op.Wolf minus the scroll" FPShooter parts could use Harsprites too... the sh'm'up second part on CPC Lady Liberty sequences would be as on CPC (faster because Hardsprites here and there and hard scroll, or not?)...

I have many ideas on the matter, just need those pesky 512K carts and a few coders and sounders... hehehe...

I dream about this Sub hunter intro in real 16 colours (19 colours?) pictures and fully many colours vertical rasterish assfest text in 16+ colours too all in fine "mode1 pixels"...


etc etc...
Fore the "19 colours" I mean 4x4 sprites matrix (64x64 pix, of just patches+rasters, do-able you know...in bigger than 64x64...) + Mode1 background... Even freaking flikerings on few raster zones could be dealt with in mode1 + Sprites... nope?


512K ROM+Disk+128K RAM is simply really huge and you all know it. Batman demo even teached us stock CPC6128+3"1/2disk + interruptions is great enough to read "videos effects with few simple effects"...


That's the point.
The machine could do all those "64K games" on CPC betterly on 64K+512K cart... just to add shittons of uncompresseed overscan graphical pages, DMA samples, and that's it...
And with the 6128K version (even 464PLUS motherboard would be easy to upgrade provided we get some soldering kits done) really, simple to get a 3"1/2 disk drive (or HxC emulator) on port a: or B:... good for extra levels, cinematics or even a few extra tiles or sprites...

Fancy could be quite fancy, videos even, productions almost closes to those CD-Rom PC-Engines or CD-MEGACD-Drive... on an Amstrad.



ok I'm drunk (it's week end And perhaps I will get a job soon...) and dreaming.
You know me.
Bless you all.


PS : post edited many times while drinking extra beers... hope it is readable and enjoy-able... or else, I don't kare... or care... ou je m'en branle... hahaha.


PS 2 : wow I can't believe all the scrap I can write while on booze on respectable forums... I should go on a rehab (no no no no no)...


PS 3 : but I like it.

[mr_lou]

I think there are 3 different usages

1) Put existing (even older) games on cartridges, so they can be played on a GX4000. May need few patches here and there. Would bring new life to the GX4000, despite the games being "plain" CPC standard ones.
2) Create CPC+ versions of existing (even older) games, taking advantage of CPC+ features in order to improve the games. Would bring new life to the CPC+ machines and the GX4000.
3) Create new CPC+ games from scratch, that takes advantage of the CPC+ features.

I admit I have a little fetish myself when it comes to multiple platforms. Many of the music tracks I've composed, I have created in multiple filetype versions, in order to make the track usable on multiple platforms.

Same thing goes when I develop apps and games for cellphones. They have to run on Android and JavaME, and if possible using HTML5 technology, then the iPhone and Windows Phone too. Add all the possible screen resolutions and different color-limitations to those devices too. You can see it's not a straight forward thing, but it's an intriguing challenge every time.

So to me it's a bit weird if no one in the CPC community feels the same way. Surely some of the developers, who's making new games, would like to (at least try to) make a game in two versions. One for CPC standard and one for CPC+. Magazines like RetroGamer would definitely bring a story like that, because CPC+ games is a rarity.


About cartridges. I've noticed that the C64 has something called an EasyFlash. They connect this EasyFlash to their C64, and then flash a CRT file directly on the C64. Maybe we could make something similar? That would reduce the need for making a ton of cases.

[Trebmint]

Personally I think as a community we should look to fill the obvious holes of games that we never got on cartridge.
1. Side scrolling shooter
2. A Cutesy platformer
3. Point n Click Adventure
4.  RPG
5. Decent sports theme
6. A Roland game
7. A nice strategy game
Would have loved to have seen something like Exile. Problem was we got a lot of very similar car / platform shooters